Forum - Class unfairness - teleporting

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Author Topic: Class unfairness - teleporting  (Read 658 times)

Herbie

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« on: June 18, 2020, 12:03:46 pm »
As far as I already learned the game is definitely not balanced in the context of classes. Only priests can heal themselves (warriors' unyielding rage is of very little use), but that's obvious. But there is another one, huge BUT. The mages' ability to bind ground which is incomparable to anything that other classes can do. It makes it extremely easy for them to proceed at one point of the game, because the only thing they need is to be teleported somewhere by another mage and voila! You can continue from here at any time! While all other classes have to either ask a mage every time (if there is one around) to be teleported or every time go through a pack of difficult enemies. There are some pets that can partially help with that, but it is not a proper solution. The scarcity of respawning points also does not help. This needs to be changed, because choosing a mage at the very beginning gives a player a huge advantage at the later stage of the game. This needs to be made more fair. For example adding more locations to the warp scroll would be useful, because in relation to the Blackwood Caverns area it can teleport you to the Caverns... and only to the Caverns. Wow, what a huge variety of locations ;-) This also needs to be changed.

Lukas

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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2020, 04:48:42 pm »
As a response to the first imbalance, all classes can use the Turkey Chick pet, which is a very good healer at higher levels. Priests are still better at healing, but the pet is better than nothing. There's two variants -- one from Andy (for 250 Colourful Feathers), and the Cracked Colourful Egg (from Alyshia's Easter Basket, for 15 Golden Easter Eggs. I'm not completely certain that Andy's has the healing ability, so keep that in mind.

As for the second imbalance, I 100% agree. I admit, I almost never use my scroll, since I have 3 warps that are in each major area. Combined with the ability to (almost) instantly teleport back to the last town/village I've gone to (without even using my scroll), mage's definitely do have an unfair advantage. For the scroll, there's not many areas besides Blackwood that needs teleports. I have a few suggestions:
  • The Cave to Elyssia (Argan Jungle)
There's a teleport to the Border of Saliko, so shouldn't there be one for the border of Ashaya/Argan Jungle? Obviously it wouldn't be available from the get-go, but when the quest "On to Midnight Mountain" (quest #225) is completed.
  • Outer Desert II [at the bottom, next to the pyramid] (Southern Seas)
Even with skip, running across 3.5 maps (half of East Dock, Hidden Beach, Outer Desert I, Outer Desert II) is painful. This teleport could be unlocked with the completion of Harrison's quests to unlock Pyramids (sorry, I haven't gotten the chance to do them, so I don't have the name or number).
  • Emerald Springs/Blackwood Canopies (Blackwood)
Again, I haven't done the necessary quests to refer to, but either location would need to be unlocked by doing the quests in Blackwood Canopies. The specific teleport location could be near Cole (Blackwood Canopies) or a the top of the waterfall (Emerald Springs).
  • Blackwood Railway Station (Blackwood)
Now, I've only seen this map through screenshots and a slight glimpse before dying, and obviously haven't done the necessary quests, so I apologize if this is already a teleport. It seems like an absolute pain to get to, and would only be available to teleport after the railway questline is completed.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2020, 04:50:14 pm by Lukas »

Plain

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« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2020, 06:53:00 pm »
Perhaps teleportation could just be nerfed? For example, it could have a longer cooldown, less slots to teleport, or you can only teleport a few times to a certain spot before the teleport expires and you cant simply teleport there anymore.

Lukas

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« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2020, 08:35:47 pm »
With all 3 of the examples, I have an issue.
  • Sometimes when I warp, I get "too excited" and click the wrong one, which also happens with scrolls. I'd be rushing to get to a certain place out of excitement, and accidentally warp to my last village, which may completely screw me over.
  • Less slots = Less ability to help. Despite me constantly using warp, I do offer to warp people for free. All 3 of my warps are hard to reach places, two of which have very important NPCs (my Blackwood Hive and Tunnels of Illusion Warp--Tera and Elly). The other place, Galepeak, still does have the occasional need to teleport as well.
  • Expiration of teleports can get VERY frustrating. Imagine you only had one teleport scroll, and had to keep buying it after 5 uses. Sucks, right? This, paired with the previous two issues, can drain the "expires" within a day.
Out of the 3 examples, if warping were to get nerfed, a longer cooldown would be best. 30 minutes seems like overkill (might as well give the other 3 classes the ability to teleport like that, if it's going to be nerfed that severely), and the original cooldown time is 90 seconds. Maybe we can find a nice in-between, or a different set of solutions?

Tobias

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« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2020, 01:46:41 pm »
To be fair, the game was never meant to be completely balanced - each class is supposed to have perks. If you want healing, you can sort-of get that on other classes, but a properly played priest will always top every other class in the game.

Likewise, you can get tanking from other classes as well, but warriors will always be best. DPS is kind of a mixed bag, because pretty much all classes can DPS, so a priest, a warrior, a mage and a hunter will all perform at least decently.
Teleportation is one of the utilities that mages have. Just like they can use magic to turn invisible, they can use magic to relocate themselves. It's a useful skill, and it doesn't really break anything in the game if they have it, so why not.

Since -
- teleportation is subject to all rules regarding dungeons. Even if you could memorize in a dungeon (which you can't), you can't just walz into someone else's instance. The server will check for instance bindings, it'll check for encounter locks, and so on. You save yourself the trip, but you can't bypass the rules, really.
- battlegrounds cannot be reached through teleportation. I'd have to check if you're specifically allowed to teleport out, but even if it did, the game doesn't chain you to the battleground anyway (you could leave at any time, even though it'd get sanctioned if someone keeps joining matches they don't intend to play).
- PvP maps have teleportation disabled. You can't just teleport to the relic in Schwartzwald and destroy it.

At the same time - similar to how classes other than priests can heal - classes other than mages can teleport to a limited extend. Most importantly, you have a scroll that teleports you to the doorstep of all major dungeons. If you want to run crypt, or the mona - that's the way to go. You teleport there, use the summon stone to summon anyone else who's missing, and you're set for the next 1.5 - 3 hours it takes you to clear the dungeon. And from most dungeons it's not more than a few maps to other places of interest.

There are some maps that are admittedly more inconvenient to reach than others - for example Galepeak, or Thymia. For those it's really made on purpose, because they're supposed to feel more isolated, more "out of the way", or more like bonus content. Mages do have an advantage there, with their ability to memorize areas. That's a good reason to befriend a mage, or bring a friend that likes to play a mage - because at the end of the day, this game is supposed to be played with a friend. Having someone there that can go ahead give you a lift is a great help - even if it's not totally necessary.
Pyramids is the same - it's supposed to be a place where you preferably go with a group. If you're alone there, you're kind of playing a dangerous game.

What you have to keep in mind as well is that the game focuses big on dungeons, which is where you get many of the achievements, the best loot, and the most elaborate use of game mechanics. Maps are nice for quests, experience, and all that, but they really are just there to get you to the next dungeon. And your scroll gets you to the entrance of each of these.

Also note that every character can *learn* every other class, and that certain pets from certain achievements can give you a lift. That a mage doesn't need any of that and could memorize an area from the get-go (after being brought there, unless they're completing the quest lines themselves) is convenient, yes, but that's simply a nice perk for being a mage. Other classes have other perks.

This coming from a priest, btw.

SoLunacyHi

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« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2020, 08:21:51 pm »
Teleport is very unfair, yes. There is no argument against mages being ridiculously ahead of every other class when out of combat because they can zip around the entire world within the blink of an eye. However, consider the class identity of a mage. Masters of the elemental and arcane magic, they bend the laws of physics with their every action, summoning elemental attacks out of nowhere, warping reality to disappear from sight, manipulating mana to protect themselves. In hindsight, the ability to memorize a location completely and rewind to that spot makes a lot of sense on a mage, perhaps unbalanced, but still quite necessary. All of the classes have thier own very distinctive, very defining qualities. Class lines are made sharp, with no instances of blurring to maintain the fact that each class is itself, and not another class with some modifications. Priests are masters of earth magic, restoring health at the wave of a paw, and also adept in the use of light, darkness, and poisons. Each of these things is reflected within their skills and no other class can do anything remotely similar.

Warriors are born of rock solid determination, and red hot fury. Thier physical endurance allows them to persist in the most brutal of fights as they effortlessly absorb damage while inflicting heavy blows of their own. These qualities are also reflected within their skills, and again, no other class does anything remotely similar.

Hunters are a bit trickier to describe with a class identity, I would say something along the lines of being crafty and resourceful. Forced to thrive with little, they can take advantage of their surroundings and make weapons from whatever they find, fire a bow with masterful skill, blend in to their surroundings, and tame wild beasts, making them lifelong companions. Reflected also in their skills, very unique. All of these classes have their own in game identity, thier own perks and weaknesses.

Consider now mage's class identity. What makes a mage a mage? Mages are defined by their mastery of the arcane. Priests also use magic, but the magic of a priest focuses on that which is already there, the light and the dark, and herbs. Arcane means secret, or what is not there. This is the type of magic a mage uses, reflected by their ability to summon elemental attacks from where nothing existed, and then forcing the attack into the physical realm to inflict heavy damage. But this is just one aspect of arcane magic. The large majority of arcane magic draws from what is not there to great effect, reflected specifically by the mana shield skill and of course, teleport. It is one thing to take power from a scroll and be transported to a location the scroll is associated with. Mages scoff at such ideas because they can use more powerful magic than the scroll offers. To a mage, scrolls are simply convenient commodities because they by nature, by class, already control such magic and can use it with ease. To take away a mage's teleport or how easy it is to use is akin to taking away a priest's revive or making the revive more difficult to use. Warriors do not have as game changing of a skill from what I know, so it is difficult to emphasize this in warrior terms. As Tobias said, however, Paw'D does not go after balance, a unity or moderation of character ability. If anything, Paw'D goes for unbalance, with character identities spaced vastly apart from each other. All of the classes received thier own super definitive qualities, and at the day's end, teleport is just another super definitive quality. One of the best, without a doubt, but still just like any other extremely valuable skill.

Awoo

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« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2020, 12:41:36 am »
I think that teleporting is mostly fair because it's the special ability of mages- warriors can tank, priests can heal, and mages can be... DPS? As said before, every class can be DPS. Now, I still have trouble traveling in Blackwood because my DPS set only has revitalize, and sometimes it doesn't heal fast enough and I die. Of course, some of the respawn points are wonky, and to travel around Blackwood is pretty hard alone, I guess the best option is to fight with friends. I remember when I used to play solo- and it was pretty common for me to ask to play with random players or just die.
I guess a good point from Lunacy was that mages use arcane so teleportation is fitting.