Defence Elements in PvP

[Tobias]

What is your stance to disabling defence elements in PvP battles?

To explain: defence elements are elements applied to your armor - changing the element of your character. A fire enchant makes you fire element, and thus more resistant to some elements, while becoming more vulnerable to others. Thus, in PvE (and also in PvE) they are very effective if you know you'll be hit by attacks from a certain element (as long as you don't also get hit by another element you're now weak to).

For the longest time, it has been some kind of a code of honour to not use elemental enchants in PvP - mostly due to the large effects they have. Fire 1 reduces damage from fire attacks by a quarter, which can easily turn the tide - especially because the opposing team changing elements is easy to miss in the heat of the battle, and because for some classes (priests and mages) it isn't necessarily easy to quickly counter that.

If defence elements were disabled,
- every player in PvP battles would be Neutral 2 (which is the default element for players)
- elemental vials would have no effect (Vial of Enchanted Fire / Water / Earth / Wind)
- monster and pet elements would still apply (pets that are naturally water stay water)
- element overrides from spells would still apply (flash freeze always makes you water)

There are several advantages to that:
- PvP contestants would no longer have to rely on a "code of honour" that anyone can break at any time
- mechanics that exist merely to deter element changing (cooldown on vials) would no longer be needed
- battles between resourceful (that may have hundreds of vials) and regular players would be more even.

But there are also disadvantages:
- it is confusing if game mechanics change between PvP and PvE (vials suddenly have no effect in PvP)
- it removes depth from PvP (countering elemental armor with the correct element would no longer be possible)
- it devalues elemental armor and elemental enchants.


So - what should happen to defence elements in PvP?

NB.: While anyone is welcome to vote, the votes from those who participate in PvP - and thus are affected by this, while also having the competence on judging how this plays out - will be counted much much more, even if the forum weights all votes equally.

[hihihi]

From a mage's point of view, having elements is just a pure counter for us, here's why:

Since fire and water are the only viable sets, a water pot or a snowbat bottle (which is not hard to get) decrease our damage by 12.5-50%, and there's nothing we can do about it. If our warrior doesn't have a wind glove, or if we don't have a warrior, then we are doomed.

Even if earth and wind are viable, we can't swap sets during battle, and we will have to suffer damage reduction until the next fight, and by then, our opponents can cancel the pots or change vials. Even if we can swap sets easily like how warriors swap gloves, we will still need 4 skill sets (one for each element), which cost 1225 gold, and that may put some mages off PvP.

Also, since mage's elements do different things (fire for damage, water for slow/freeze, and maybe new themes for wind/earth in the future :p), it's more fun to to let us choose sets based on their effects, instead of countering our opponents' elements.

Speaking from my experience of healing PvP, mages' damage are less lethal than warriors' and hunters'. Their single target spells are slow and constant which is pretty easy to heal, and their AOE can be covered by revit and healing winds. With the new equipments giving magic armour, mages really don't need another counter.

Furthermore, using vials in PvP isn't a test of skill at all, it's about how many pots you can waste, and thats really unfair to new/poor players. I don't think disabling elements will devalue vials or elemental enchant since they are extremely useful in PvE, but will make it a lot easier to balance PvP (no damage modifier = no OP damage).

Just some of my thoughts on this :p

[Arthur]

I agree with hihihi, vials can be a pain if one can't counter them.

But for spirit bottles, well, they are hard to get, not like vials, so it's not like all the players will take a bottle to PvP from now on (or who knows) but since they are rare, shouldn't be a problem, if everyone starts to use them, then I think that something can be done.

Also, about the gloves, it's true that there are only a few warriors who have special gloves, but almost all of the warriors who participate on PvP have wind gloves, the problem is when there is not a warrior on the team.

[Dosh]

How about take away the use of vials in PvP? So, it'll depend on equipment a bit more, with the spirit bottles and perks from equipment.

[hihihi]

Most elemental bottles drop from bosses (AD / DD / Casper / Bizz), and only AD's is useful in PvP (-12% fire/neutral damage, and no one uses earth/dark gloves or earth magic :p). I'm totally fine with players using these bottles since other boss bottles are equally strong.

However, the real problem lies on snow bat spirit bottle. It is the best elemental bottle for PvP (-12% for fire and -25% for water, which is a lot), waaaaay better than the other boss bottles. And most importantly, it drops from normal mobs. It is extremely easy to farm for (even the batlings drop it), so spending ~2-3 days near the ice rink will be enough, and i don't think thats very fair.

Imo, if elemental bottles are allowed, snow bat bottle should be disabled :p

[edky]

I never use pots or bottles for elemental defense in pvp, but I have no problem at all with others using them. It just adds another level of strategy to the matches.

I do agree that mages get the worst of it with these items. Out of the 3 classes that can use most of the elements through items or spells, mages can't simply switch to another element as easily as the warrior or Hunter can. I always thought that was kinda unfair.  It also ties mages into using just one element during the matches, often being fire, and sometimes water. I really want to see more variety in these matches from mages, so I'm all for allowing mages to easily switch their elements during the matches.  It will make the matches more interesting.

Of course, a new spell could be introduced to nullify the effects of these items for a short period of time...  but I rather see mages allowed to switch elements during PVP matches. 

[Tobias]

I do agree that mages get the worst of it with these items. Out of the 3 classes that can use most of the elements through items or spells, mages can't simply switch to another element as easily as the warrior or Hunter can. I always thought that was kinda unfair. It also ties mages into using just one element during the matches, often being fire, and sometimes water. I really want to see more variety in these matches from mages, so I'm all for allowing mages to easily switch their elements during the matches.  It will make the matches more interesting.

Well, I can explain the difficulty of switching elements - the limitation (need to be out of combat, and it takes a 10 seconds interruptable cast to switch) exists because without it, switching skills essentially lets you double the amount of skills you have (you could switch, use a spell, switch back). There is no technical reason why you'd need to have the above limitations, but having none would make the skill points ... pointless.

So, the question here is how would you make it easier, while avoiding mages switching between a pure damage skillset (no defence at all, just attacks) and a pure CC skillset (Flash Freeze, Frost Nova, Path of Frost, Spike Trap, ...) as quickly as you switch gloves.

However, the real problem lies on snow bat spirit bottle. It is the best elemental bottle for PvP (-12% for fire and -25% for water, which is a lot), waaaaay better than the other boss bottles. And most importantly, it drops from normal mobs.

Limiting the bottle now that a lot of people have it would make it very difficult for anyone else to get it. Plus, it evens the battle field. The problem with boss bottles is that they are very very rare, so if you have one, you have a huge advantage over anyone else.

Vials are slightly easier to counter than elemental armor (with spirit bottles). Right now, you have a two minute cooldown when you use a vial, so you're "stuck" with that element. Elemental armor can be quickly switched, even between spells, making it very difficult to counter if its user is at least halfway skilled.

Even if earth and wind are viable, we can't swap sets during battle, and we will have to suffer damage reduction until the next fight, and by then, our opponents can cancel the pots or change vials. Even if we can swap sets easily like how warriors swap gloves, we will still need 4 skill sets (one for each element), which cost 1225 gold, and that may put some mages off PvP.
[...]
Furthermore, using vials in PvP isn't a test of skill at all, it's about how many pots you can waste, and thats really unfair to new/poor players. I don't think disabling elements will devalue vials or elemental enchant since they are extremely useful in PvE, but will make it a lot easier to balance PvP (no damage modifier = no OP damage).

This is definitely true.

It still begs the question how you'd make it easier to switch elements? I don't think the full 1225 gold are necessary - the first skill set costs a fraction of that, and with one skill set you can usually cover two elements pretty well, no? Having two should be enough to counter most that a team can throw at you.


Generally from the votes it seems clear that regular PvPers want something done (like I said, I weight by that, and the vote saying 'do nothing' came from someone who I think never even PvPed). Almost all mage-PvPers want elements removed, the rest wants a weaker form of removal or a vote.

Since a lot want a vote on each battle, we can start with that and see how it plays out?

[hihihi]

It will be nice to start with voting :p
I would also like to clarify a few things:

In regard to snow bat spirit bottle, I wasn't suggesting limiting its supply, as it is a nice PvE bottle. However, given that its effect in PvP is stronger even than boss bottles, a nerf similar to the dark glove can be applied (e.g. +100% damage received if used in PvP).

As for the cooldown on vials, 2 minutes isn't enough since it is the average time between individual fights. I think 5-6 minutes will be better so mages who check the element early will gain an advantage in the next 1-2 fights.

For skill sets, it usually takes all the skill points on a single element to make a set viable, going hybrid (e.g. fire + wind in 1 set) will give an extremely low DPS and mana regen. Although having 2 element sets is enough to avoid primary element disadvantages (either fire/wind or water/earth), they will not be as effective as warrior's or hunter's. Also, 2 sets are not enough when fighting against light and dark armours (light counters fire/wind and dark counters water/earth).

I think switching elements for mages is something that's worth looking into. It's not only for PvP, but also in some PvE maps like SS. Here are some ideas for such a skill:
1) Add a cooldown (~1 min, should be a lot shorter than vials', so it will be enough to counter elements while preventing mages from spamming it)
2) When the skill is casted:
 - dispel all self-employed buffs (arcane might and steal magic, to prevent the benefits from a buff set, while keeping the other buffs and debuffs from others like poison and embers)
 - Dispel all debuffs created from the player (e.g. embers, frigid splash, and CCs like FF, spiky trap's slow, etc.)
 - Remove all AOE skills created by the player (firewall, frozen mist, path of frost, to prevent stacking OP damage)

[Tobias]

I think switching elements for mages is something that's worth looking into. It's not only for PvP, but also in some PvE maps like SS. Here are some ideas for such a skill:
1) Add a cooldown (~1 min, should be a lot shorter than vials', so it will be enough to counter elements while preventing mages from spamming it)
2) When the skill is casted:
 - dispel all self-employed buffs (arcane might and steal magic, to prevent the benefits from a buff set, while keeping the other buffs and debuffs from others like poison and embers)
 - Dispel all debuffs created from the player (e.g. embers, frigid splash, and CCs like FF, spiky trap's slow, etc.)
 - Remove all AOE skills created by the player (firewall, frozen mist, path of frost, to prevent stacking OP damage)

Those are definitely good ideas. And you are right - unless we remove buffs and AOEs, I could literally see stacked firewalls and blizzards.

I also had another idea - elemental modifiers could be kept, but lessened in PvP. So, instead of fire on water 2 doing -50%, it could do -10%. That'd keep elements and general strategies (you take more damage if you're earth and they use fire), but make them less of a deal-breaker.

[hihihi]

I also had another idea - elemental modifiers could be kept, but lessened in PvP. So, instead of fire on water 2 doing -50%, it could do -10%. That'd keep elements and general strategies (you take more damage if you're earth and they use fire), but make them less of a deal-breaker.

Thats gonna be a lot more balanced :p