Warrior power

[Deathofdeath]

I think warriors are too strong
they beat almost everything, can have really good armour and dont have to worry about mana and other stuff like very long cooldowns.
I am a mage and i always lose becuase (even though my armour is not the best) they dont have to worry about mana. They can just attack which makes them near impossible to beat.

What do you think?

[Tobias]

Personally I don't think so. ;P

You'd have to compare yourself against a warrior that played for about the same length as you, to be objective.
If you played a warrior, and fought against Shockwave (for example) you'd likely lose.


Pike and Cay are hard to beat. However, that's because they play well.
As priest, I don't consider many other warriors a threat. If I go pure damage, I'd win against most of them.

[Deathofdeath]

I do agree with willy, (not that i want to gang up on you toby) but even if i am not that strong yet i still see that warriors can do massive damage without deing meanwhile preists (some) and mages (again some) dei more often and also dont do as much. they seem to be more support than acctually meant to do the main damage.

[Tobias]

I personally don't see how.

Example with fire spells.

Fire Bolt: 83.5 x 7 = 584.5 damage every 2.5 seconds
Embers: 40.2 damage every second
Ignite: 392 damage every 7 seconds

330 damage per second.

I'll assume you have infernal heat, because it's a flat damage bonus and there's no reason not to get it.
Max level infernal heat gives +15%, so 379.5 damage per second.

I also assume you use the correct element, so you get at least the +25% bonus multiplier, so 474.3 damage per second.

And that's without any magic. Seeing warriors are around 400-600 damage per second with gear, I don't see how fire is too low. Yes, if you are meleed by a monster that has smite and bash, you'll have troubles getting spells off. However, even then you can cast a different spell school to waste its interrupts, simply eat the lockout, or keep them at range.

In PvP you can use different strategies to stay at range and immobilize your targets. And then there's flat out CC spells.

[Deathofdeath]

what i am really talking about is in pvp. i do like the fact that warriors are so strong while fighting bosses (even though i would want that damage) but in pvp time is everything and warriors have all the time they need. the damage is not the important factor (even though it can be) what i am talking about is how warriors can keep at you till you die, you freeze them once then they break out (eventually they would) and will come at you again its a losing battle unless you have warriors on your side. which means that mages wouldnt have a chance against warriors if for example it was 3 warriors like pike or kitson vs 3 mages like shockwave, it would be pretty interesting to see who would win. but i would guess at the warriors, they dont have to worry about mana all they have to worry about is health and when you have 2k-4k health (guess) its pretty easy to run out of mana especially with bash and smite. xd this sounds really argumentative i am just trying to get my point across 

[Tobias]

Warriors have fury to worry about, so it's not like they can just walk at you and use Thrash. In addition, once they use Thrash, their fury bar is drained, and it takes about 7-8 swings to get it up again (assuming they use no other skill).

Even at 1-1, you have knockback abilities that keep them away from you. If they are in melee range, however, and begin wailing on you, it would feel OP if mages won anyway. You can attack them from range. They can't.

[Deathofdeath]

yes that is what i am talking about eventually a mage or preist would kill something but it would take longer and that is what the warrior needs the longer a battle the more fury and the faster they can kill, meanwhile for a mage the longer the battle the less mana therefore the quicker they die it is slanted in the warriors favor

[Tobias]

Well, I have one more personally meaning, I just tested out a warrior char, and it kind of K.O a caterpillar while at lvl. 1. with the lvl 1 Swipe attack.

I'm not quite sure how you'd swipe with level 1 - Swipe requires level 3 at least. ;P
And even if you use it (it needs fury, so you need some time to build it up), it'll do 11 + 100% attack damage split among all its targets - that won't kill a caterpillar.

[PaiKai]

what i am really talking about is in pvp...

Okay then, let's talk about PvP!

Point 1: Warriors cannot attack other players at a range,
while damage priests and mages can snipe players from afar.

To all ranged fighters, especially mages,
I suggest you get onto a higher platform that is difficult to climb up.
In almost every battleground, there are platforms where mages can use *knockback skills
From these areas, a clever mage can easily defeat most all Warrior enemies.
I suggest you look for them the next time you are in PvP!

*(**Thunderbolt and Waterball)
**In order for Thunderbolt to have Knockback, a Coronet of the Tempest,
Lucy's Tiara, or Charm of Thunder are required)

Point 2: Warriors do not have any long lasting Crowd Control Skills (CC),
while the other classes have skills such as "Flash Freeze" and "Nighfall"

Strategy is key in PvP. CC Skills are literally game-winning when used properly.
CC skills, however, are dispelled when the frozen/sleeping target takes damage.
As a class with CC skills, you will want to coordinate with your team so that these important debuffs aren't dispelled.
Do that, and your team will have a significantly better chance of winning.

Point 3: Warriors and Priests do not have Arcane skills, only mages do.

As a mage, your defining perks are your ability to use Arcane skills. 
Arcane skills include Invisibility, Skip, Mana Shield, Dispell Magic, and Disrupt Magic.
Invisibility allows for stealth strategies to be employed in PvP,
Skip and Mana Shield can be used to get away or buy time,
Dispell magic can protect your team from CC Skills.
Disrupt Magic can temporarily nullify the other team's healing abilities capabilities.
All these can easily steal victory when used correctly.
Whether it be by stealing a last minute capture, or breaking up the other teams strategy.

Point 4: Mages and Damage Priests have elemental advantages without drawbacks.

The Damage Priests' Judgement and Poison both deal 25% extra damage against all players with Neutral 2 element.
By default, all players are Neutral 2, as long as they don't use elemental armor enchantments.
Additionally, Poison gets a 50% damage boost against castle doors and a 100% damage boost against the Relic.

Mages have the versatility to pick between Fire, Earth, Water, and Wind. While none of them deal extra damage against players, they easily bring down castle doors and the Relic. Fire gets a 50% damage boost against doors,
Water gets a 25% damage boost against doors and 20% against the relic, and Earth gets 100% more damage against the Relic.

Warriors, can obtain the Water damage from the Ice Glove and Fire damage from the Fire Glove. Both however, reduce their attack. Only by using a Vial of Glacial or Ember Coating can a Warrior retain full damage. Yet, this is impractical for PvP since such Vials are generally difficult to produce and would be quickly used up in PvP.

Point 5: Mages are a support class.

All points listed above prove that mages, when used along side with team coordination and personal skill, are a major asset to any PvP team. It is important to keep in mind that mages are support classes. Without a strong Warrior and Healing Priest to back them up, Mages are generally (but not always) easy prey for Warriors. One exceptions is using Invisibility to capture the relic and knock down doors when no one is looking. Even then, that would weaken the team by one less, valuable, member.

tl;dr Mages, when used properly, can greatly increase a team's chance to win.
Damage Priests are pretty nice too.

[Deathofdeath]

It is hard to argue with someone who is taking finals and has to write essays all the time xd but i will try any way.
                  In point one you stated (Quote) "Point 1: Warriors cannot attack other players at a range, while damage priests and mages can snipe players from afar."(Unquote)
          This is a dabatable fact becuase it is not hard for a warrior to move towards the mage or priests, even easier with charge which propels you towards you target and stuns them, which would make a mage useless while the warrior atuo attacks, which still do quite a bit of damage. and then after the stun is over they would have enough fury to thrash which would pretty much be the end of it. if a mage had a mana shield up there mana would be 0 and without the mana shield they would have no health. With that one move a warrior could easily close alot of distace put between each other  in a battle. It is a deadly trap that no other class has. Now in point one you also mentioned height as something to use against warriors since they would have to get to you then. In the castle the only places are the stairs and the fountain, only if your lagging are stairs a problem and to well seasoned players like yourself, stairs are a joke of an obstacle. The fountain would be another option, but that as well has drawbacks. I have tried it myself, and found out that people can see you before you see them, for example if i was on the fountain even though it would take you more time to get up there you would still know i was there before i knew you were there. Timing is everything and with the element of suprise it would be even more difficult to kill a warrior. The last thing you said in your first poin was that a mage could use knockbacks as a form of keeping a warrior from them. this is a valid point, but thunder alone does not have the same advanteges as fire and would not do even close to the same damage, and it costs more mana, if there was a fire knockback (besides firewal) it would be pluasable but without it i would have a tough time beating a warrior who has 2k to 4k health with only storm. Even with a proper knockback it would still only keep a warrior away for a limited amount of time and in a pvp battle time (as i have said before) is everything. also in a pvp battle there is normally more than one opponet and it would be much more difficult to fight 2 people and having to concentrate on knocking back the warrior.
                 Your second point was of CC skills, these skills as valuable as they are would severly limit the damage a mage can do, Ice is not the most powerfull type there is in fact i would say it would be one of the weakest (Blizard can be avoided) except for the cc. l would be of no use to my team if i cant kill anyone, only freeze. and you could say that i could learn storm then, but it still would be unneccasary due to the fact that i would have to forget most of my arcane skills in order to do that.
                  This leads into your third point of Arcane spells, they as good as they are require perfect percision and have very long cooldowns, along with that they cost a good bit of mana too and are impractical when facing warriors due to smite and bash.
                  Your fourth point was that of element damage and of this, i would say it is rather nice to beat up a door from time to time and get the relic but when you break the doors then get murdered by a warrior who you cant kill it is of no use. You also spoke of gloves and the vials as for the gloves as you said lower your attack and there fore are not needed, but the vials on the otherhand can be easily obtained from our guild bank
                 Now your last point is what i agree on, the mages AND priests are support clases, they are not as powerfull as warriors. and are "easy prey" to almost any warrior. this proves that warriors are stronger than mages and that mages are only meant to be support and not strong enough for combat with a warrior. This overall proves my point that warriors are stronger, as nice as mages and preists are warriors are still vastly stronger and more self-sufficient in combat
                                   Sry if there are any typos i am not a really good typer

[Deathofdeath]

xd i don't mind, but as it is waterball is very very hard to get and pike is also lvl 32 therefore would have more easier time to kill you with waterball. and thing is as you just said a warrior can get waterbal too and then no one would be more powerful cause we would all just be throwing waterballs everywhere xd. also you said the WARRIOR killed you a MAGE with waterball proving warriors are still stronger even using mage like skills

[PaiKai]

The power of Waterball is adjusted by Magic.
Against other level 32's, a Warrior using Waterball is pointless.
MUCH more damage can be dealt with melees.
Only when used by Priests and Mages does Waterball hold any practical PvP use.

Aside from that, I have a question to pose.
Hypothetically, if it is proved that beyond a reasonable doubt, Warriors are Overpowered,
What changes would need to be made to balance Warriors with the other classes?

Be specific in your answer.
-Do particular Warrior skills need to be adjusted?
-Does Warrior equipment need to be weakened?
-Do Warriors need a debuff that makes them weaker in PvP?
-Do Priest and Mages need more power or ways to counter Warriors?
-...or something not listed above?

[Deathofdeath]

You point is well said i would say warriors as they are, happen to have a well rounded amount of skills and making them weaker would destroy that balance, making them the weakest class, what i would want is that mages and maybe priests (i cant speak for priests considering i have never been one) should have either a more balanced spell book, or more training points to use. I only say this because warriors have a attack side and a defense side they can clearly choose which they want, however mages have multiple amount of spells to choose from not including the arcane, training points dont go as far with mages, i would think that maybe if the spell book for mages were better organized (as in "More Defensive" and "More Offensive"). this would be a deciding factor in combat. a mage would then KNOW whether their skills are more defensive or offensive and therefore know when to fight and who to fight and what skills to use, take Caydence for example who is nearly impossible to beat by mages, maybe even warriors, now if mages could have a defensive mode (more than mana shield) they would have more of a chance. I would like to hear what others think.

[Tobias]

There are a couple of things I'd like to throw in there, some of which I have also talked about in-game -


First of all, I find it not desirable that an equally-geared, equally-skilled mage defeats a warrior one on one. If that were the case, then it would be an issue that needs to be resolved, as it would make mages the single most powerful class melee and at range.

Second, you should, realistically, not find yourself pitted against a warrior 1v1. In PvE, any warrior-like monster has reasonable cooldowns in place that all classes can deal with them, and in battlegrounds, you are in a team. The team assignment does make an effort to balance the classes, however obviously there are limited decisions that can be made when only four are queued.

I do not think simplifying the game too much is a good idea. There are detailed skill descriptions in place: you can hover a skill in the skillbook to get the gist, and Ctrl+Click it for a more detailed description. I personally think that having people read, understand and realize what skills do and what they could be used for is part of the game. Think of it as a mage studying their spellbooks. Dumping things down can also be counterproductive, as someone expending effort trying to understand the tools they have should be rewarded over someone who did not.

That is not to say the game has to be complicated. In fact, you can get very far without having much of an idea at all. I've seen level 10s without skills, I've seen players reach the level cap without ever fighting in a dungeon, or that die to the first boss in BFA. However it is a nice and desirable effect that someone who spends a bit of extra effort digging into the combat  mechanics (which DO exist, and are, in fact, well defined) reflects on their performance.

As you took Caydence as an example, let me pick up on that. Caydence plays very well, and she seems to have a very good grasp on the skills warriors have, and great execution in what they're used for. She carefully tweaked her stats, her skills and her equipment to maximize her damage output. She uses elements to her advantage and knows the elemental counters by heart. There is no reason that someone who doesn't play on her level should be able to defeat her with ease.

If something specific needs fixing, you are welcome to tell me what it is. I am open to suggestions, but they have to be realistic, not break the class, and issue needs to be sound (ie. if you are making mistakes with elements or miss out on a major damage source in your skill set, I would have troubles taking it seriously).

Since it has come up before: an invulnerability shield is not a good solution, by the way, and I would dismiss that without a second thought (as it breaks PvP, PvE and pretty much everything else the game bases on).

[Tobias]

Let me chime in on this too:

-Do particular Warrior skills need to be adjusted?
-Does Warrior equipment need to be weakened?

Making a class *weaker* has the potential to throw off  all existing encounters, which have been balanced in the past.
We had very skilled mages before, so I know they work well. Adjustments would better be in terms of buffs, unless something is seriously wrong.

-Do Warriors need a debuff that makes them weaker in PvP?

I think it's good game-design to make PvP and PvE as similar as possible.
Knowledge acquired in one part of the game (such as fighting against monsters) should be applicable to other parts in the game (such as fighting another player). That seems logical, neat and clean.


Also, don't forget mages have Thunderbolt and its knockback effect. It's not just Waterball (which is a very nice skill to have).

This, however -

-Do Priest and Mages need more power or ways to counter Warriors?

- is a valid consideration.


TLDR; I don't want to quench discussion, but I'd prefer it if it went in a certain direction:

- Which mage skills are the problem, and how do they need to be changed? Which ones don't do enough damage, or are otherwise a hassle?
- Which mage skills are lacking? (keep in mind, no "god" skills or similar. More like, is something missing with respect of a certain element. Also, if it's like an "emergency button" ability: the better the skill, the longer its cooldown.)